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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkiNotts View Post
    lotta stuff here...
    I'm a little confused here... you seem to be complaining because you got VTMs that covered things that they said they were going to cover and didn't cover things that you wanted them to cover.

    If you read the description of the VTMs you'll see that the graphics are done using wxWidgets (which is widely used), you won't be getting into animation, and that the topics are introductory...

    Sorry you feel like a "chump", but I'm not really sure what you were expecting out of the VTMs...

    "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~Rich Cook

  2. #122
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by AkiNotts View Post
    6. No source code?? hope you can type fast and alt-tab quickly

    My beef is
    1. they should have used software which is available to all ie Visual Studio Express C++ IDE or bloodshed C++ IDE. Not the expensive .net version! £100 pound is alot to some ok.
    2. they should have used opengl sdk or directx sdk at least, which is easily downloadable and there is plenty of help on the net on these sdk. Not widgets which is lame to say the least, ive tried to do more with it just cant, its just very basic and get irritating when you want to do more but cant!

    Aki
    Do you have the Opengl VTMS?
    they cover Opengl in them

    and there is a FREE visual studio Compiler
    and you can use Bloodshed Dev C++ and CodeBlocks with the Mingw COmpiler to do ALL of these VTMS


    and No Source Code... that is because they want you to type it out so you learn how to program, NOT Copy and Paste Code

    they never mentioned they would go over Animation and advanced Topics
    they provided everything they said they would provide in the Description
    ME WANT AGENTS ME WANT AGENTS ME WANT AGENTS

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkiNotts View Post
    Hello Aki,


    I'm trying my best to completely understand your position here - and very much like the arguments you pose as to why the videos aren't a good learning resource - I'm coming up short.

    The videos are $99, and introduce a complete beginner to the world of C++ and OpenGL. They cover over 40 hours of content that has already got many students jobs as programmers. Granted, those students took the education further on their own; the point is that they used our videos as their launch pad and had great success with them. No, they don't cover anything other than their planned topics...


    But let me address each of your concerns individually.

    1. Make a Evil Monkeys game with no animation (PS look good though no chance to advance yourself, no extra help.

    No chance to advance yourself? Interesting concept. So actually going through and creating a game doesn't actually teach you anything? I suppose it wouldn't if you're just blithely copying code and not really paying attention to what the instructor is talking about. Of course, at that point, you're not a programmer; you're a semi-autonomous dictation-taker. And, for the record, I cannot think of a single training video that offers 'extra help'. They have a set topic, and they cover it, period.

    And we never said we'd cover animation. We did, however, cover everything we said we would.

    2. Uses Widgets only, plus they could have gone into more depth. and its not that different from opengl which looks more complex but isnt. If you've got a good opengl ref book or help guide download of the internet (ps not saying that you couldnt use it in evil monkeys game that you created its just not worth it). Well if you get an opengl chm book off the net you can just copy and paste the code like i do

    Any video over any topic can always go into 'more depth'. There's always something not covered. There is no video out there for any topic that covers absolutely everything. Evil Monkeys is exactly what it sets out to be: a tutorial game that shows you the basics of creating your own games using C++.

    And we have videos over OpenGL. You should definitely check them out. Rendering techniques, graphics architecture, writing custom shaders, creating interactive viewports, particle engines, an FBX importer, and more. You'd probably like them.

    And thanks for that bit about copy/pasting your code. Seriously, that made my day better than anything I've seen on FARK lately. I know we've got some professional programmers reading this thread right now who can tell you all about how they spend their days copy/pasting code. I mean really, who needs to write the stuff anyway, right?

    3. Uses your name and address in the background get a little irritating, but you get used to it, no chance on selling it on then?

    Nope, no chance on reselling licensed material. Sorry about that. It's just that in the world of IP sales, piracy is our #1 enemy. And I know this will take you completely by surprise, but did you know realize that the people who hate that watermark the most are pirates? Weird, huh?

    You're paying us to teach you. You can't take the lessons you get from college or tech school and just magically sell them to someone else. But if you figure out some way to do that, let's talk.

    4. Joel needs to switch to decaf.

    LOL! No comment.

    5. In some of the vtms they get alittle lost Yes i know they planed it and still cant follow there own plans, funny eh "gurus?" i think not. Experienced yes.

    Yeah, sometimes when you're coding things don't work out like you think they should. See, in real programming environments, you don't always have pre-debugged code laying around to copy/paste from, so sometimes things don't work out entirely like you think they should. Not that I expect you to understand this.

    It's something we actually kind of pride ourselves on in our videos: letting you see problems as well as successes. It helps prepare you for REAL programming (not just copy/paste/OMG-it-works! kind of programming) because you get to see some of the common pitfalls people can get caught up in.

    6. No source code?? hope you can type fast and alt-tab quickly

    Or know how to use the ol' pause button. (Nice hack!)

    Nope, we don't provide source code. Now, I know this a real pain for those 1337 h@xx0rz (note: NOT real programmers) who want to copy/paste/OMG-it-works every program they make. See, we've got this little theory - okay, it's not really ours... it's been around for a few thousand years or so - that by actually DOING something, you learn how it works and how you can do it on your own. I know that sounds crazy, but seriously, believe it or not, it has worked for several people in the past.

    And actually, your post proves another point. If we released the source code, people would leak it (you can't protect a text file) and then folks like you would just copy/paste it and think they'd actually learned something.

    What i would recommed is that if you want to become a game programmer is
    1. get Beginning C++ Game Programming. Dos games only but after learning this you get all the basics.
    2. get Sams 24 game programming you use windows GDI for the graphics its a good start.
    3. get opengl tutorials http://nehe.gamedev.net/ free!!!
    4. get Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus, 2nd ed. for directx
    5. Yes cheaper than vtms tutorials which costs around £100.
    6. Theres many free website for game programming.


    Sure, probably cheaper if you get used copies of the books or find some illicit PDF of them (naughty, naughty!). Now we're back around to assuming that the entire world learns the same way you do, which apparently is by copy/paste/OMG-it-works! straight from some book. Plus, you'd only get a fraction of the material.

    1. they should have used software which is available to all ie Visual Studio Express C++ IDE or bloodshed C++ IDE. Not the expensive .net version! £100 pound is alot to some ok.

    VSExpress didn't exist when those videos were produced. It came out in beta toward the end of the project. Not to mention that there's nothing stopping anyone from using any IDE they like to complete the videos. It's not really like you're learning (or copy/pasting) another language or anything. C++ is C++, regardless of the IDE, and we've had MANY students complete the videos with free IDEs.

    2. they should have used opengl sdk or directx sdk at least, which is easily downloadable and there is plenty of help on the net on these sdk. Not widgets which is lame to say the least, ive tried to do more with it just cant, its just very basic and get irritating when you want to do more but cant!

    Um... wow. Widgets is actually pretty widely used. Epic Games, for example, makes heavy use of it in most of their tools. 'Course, they're not copy/paste/OMG-it-works!-ing their code over there at Epic. Maybe that's why they're under the misconception that Widgets actually works really well.

    We weren't setting out to teach you OpenGL or DirectX. We set out to teach you game development using Widgets. This is like complaining because the kids in first grade would have a much easier time with polynomials if they would have just introduced algebra in kindergarten. Crawl before you can walk, and understand how the code works before you try to implement too many things at once.

    well if you are lazy then you need this.

    Right. Because if you copy/paste/OMG-it-works! when you're programming, you're clearly not lazy. I can't wait for that programming job to come along where you're sitting there going, "How am I supposed to CODE this thing? There's nothing I can paste from!"



    Well, let's finally move on the final chapter in this behemoth:

    You blew my mind when you said the videos teach you how to just make Evil Monkeys and nothing else. Are you seriously telling me that you can make it all the way through a tutorial and not learn anything other than what was directly shown to you? If that's the case, you're not cut out for tutorials in the first place. You need a real programmer sitting over your shoulder 24/7 showing you what you should be typing (or copy/pasting) to create your programs. We're trying to TEACH you something, not SHOW you something. If you're not capable of LEARNING, then there's not a training video in existence that's going to satisfy you.

    I think I see what's going on here. You just don't like training videos, and you're likely incapable of actually using them to learn. Let me assure that this is a personal problem for you and has nothing to do with the rest of the world. I noticed in your suggestions that you recommend nothing but books and online tutorials. This further suggests that you're just not a training video kind of person. That's fine. Do whatever it takes to learn and advance your knowledge, but please don't assume that everyone learns the same way you do.

    Tutorials are not about Evil-Monkey-see/Evil-Monkey-do, they're about you seeing how to approach particular situations so that you can then apply what you've just (hopefully) learned to your own experiences. If you're not able to do that, then the type/length/quality of the tutorial are instantly irrelevant.

    If anyone has any real questions on the C++ VTMs, email at zak@3dbuzz.com.

    PS The videos cost about $100, not 100 pounds. Actually, if you're in the UK, they're fairly cheap. Also, try to imagine getting any programming instructor to deliver that same content (no answering questions, just reproducing the content) to you personally for $2 per hour. Won't happen.

  4. #124
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    Oh man how come we get all the asshatters in England
    Dude £50 is nothing! That's the price of a return train ticket to London for me. If you could pay that much for 40 hours of super high-quality university lectures in the UK we'd all be super smart and that's just not the case

    Except for stevenhughes...but he's not really human.

  5. #125
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    Jesus, it just my opinion, i was just critisicing you know a "critic" so next the vtms can be better/improved because these left me a little empty once i finished, on what i though was wrong Mr DarkViper338. sorry its my mistake but i did think it was obvious, next time i will write CRITISING down just for you Mr DarkViper. I would write alot back to you Mr Darkviper this argument can go on and on, but im busy writing the code for a tetris clone with twist, ill post it in a couple of months game programming is hobby of mine (only couple hours aweek). im currenctly starting a business up also. Then you can be a critic for my game. Its healthy to critisicing someone's work so they can improve it.

    this one for you Mr DarkViper338
    "how do you know what victory is, when you've never tasted defeat"

    PS Toastage(lies) you Bushlicker i dont hate americans just there President you cock. Dont make me something im not.

    Remember the first Amendment it goes something like:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    From Wikipedia.


    Aki

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkiNotts View Post
    Jesus, it just my opinion, i was just critisicing you know a "critic" so next the vtms can be better/improved because these left me a little empty once i finished, on what i though was wrong Mr DarkViper338. sorry its my mistake but i did think it was obvious, next time i will write CRITISING down just for you Mr DarkViper. I would write alot back to you Mr Darkviper this argument can go on and on, but im busy writing the code for a tetris clone with twist, ill post it in a couple of months game programming is hobby of mine (only couple hours aweek). im currenctly starting a business up also. Then you can be a critic for my game. Its healthy to critisicing someone's work so they can improve it.

    this one for you Mr DarkViper338
    "how do you know what victory is, when you've never tasted defeat"

    PS Toastage(lies) you Bushlicker i dont hate americans just there President you cock. Dont make me something im not.

    Remember the first Amendment it goes something like:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    From Wikipedia.


    Aki
    Seriously...
    Do you have any fries with this B.S you are serving?
    If you don't like the content just leave... Better yet READ the contents of the products in the store before purchasing.

    I'm not sure what the quote to Zak was all about, seems a bit obnoxious to me.

    I'm not going to even get to the other things you are implying / saying.

    3DBuzz is not the BE-ALL-AND-END-ALL of a programming education, but it CERTAINLY kicked off my education and I will now have a solid platform to start a CS University course. That is what its all about in my eyes. I couldn't ask for any more (well maybe a little )!

    Regards,
    -Alex
    [Pulling out his pump-action shotgun.] Hicks: I like to keep this handy for close encounters.
    Frost: I hear that!
    -Aliens

    Blain: Bunch of slack-jawed faggots around here! This stuff will make you a god damnned sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me!
    -Predator

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkiNotts View Post
    PS Toastage(lies) you Bushlicker i dont hate americans just there President you cock. Dont make me something im not
    Uhh...All I said was "How come we get all the asshats in England?". Your logic is completely botched and you're making no sense. NO SENSE MAN! Also how do you think I'm lying?

    But yeah, you're definitely an asshat
    Last edited by Toastage; 07-13-2007 at 12:18 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkiNotts View Post
    Jesus, it just my opinion, i was just critisicing you know a "critic" so next the vtms can be better/improved because these left me a little empty once i finished, on what i though was wrong Mr DarkViper338. sorry its my mistake but i did think it was obvious, next time i will write CRITISING down just for you Mr DarkViper. I would write alot back to you Mr Darkviper this argument can go on and on, but im busy writing the code for a tetris clone with twist, ill post it in a couple of months game programming is hobby of mine (only couple hours aweek). im currenctly starting a business up also. Then you can be a critic for my game. Its healthy to critisicing someone's work so they can improve it.

    this one for you Mr DarkViper338
    "how do you know what victory is, when you've never tasted defeat"

    PS Toastage(lies) you Bushlicker i dont hate americans just there President you ****. Dont make me something im not.

    Remember the first Amendment it goes something like:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    From Wikipedia.

    Aki
    You see... you actually weren't criticizing the VTMs, you were criticizing them over the content they chose to cover which is fully explained in the contents on the store. Now you could try and make an argument that the content covered was done poorly or is not sufficient for teaching, but that's not what you did. Instead you made ignorant statements about technologies that you clearly know little about.

    A critique would be something like, "I found it hard to move between VS 2003 and VS 2005 because Joel used some non-standard C++, such as declaring the main() function as 'void main()' instead of 'int main()'."

    The only valid critique I saw you make was about the lack of source code that comes with the VTMs.

    No, instead you went on a rampage of how you thought the VTMs should be done as if you didn't read the contents of the material you were purchasing. So for that, you got called out and then come back with a pretty messed up response.

    I also suggest that you actually re-read the first amendment right that you are so inaccurately quoting as a defense for you write whatever you wish. Last I checked 3D Buzz wasn't congress or any other branch of the government. What that means is that while you can say whatever you want here with out legal action (besides somethings, such as slander which arguably your first post is borderline of being), the first amendment right does NOT give you to the right to say anything and be free of any and all consequences that may follow. The first amendment right protects your right to speak out against your government without fear of prosecution, however, speaking out with whatever you have to say may in fact make you look like a total tool.

    -David

    "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~Rich Cook

  9. #129
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    OK, I have to side with Ownsd on this one, in part. It is true that you sounded too harsh, so in the future, when you make critiques, try to sound less hostile and more friendly; which will make more people listen to you.

    That being said, I think we are being too hard on this guy. He posted his opinion, and, while it being harsh, we just automatically attacked him for not having a popular one. Instead of throwing insulates and sarcastic posts at him, we should have critiqued his critique. I mean, common; we are being border-line hypocrites here. We want him to sound nicer, yet we are being assholes to him.

    So why don't we just calm down and stop insulting each other


  10. #130
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    Positive critiques are always welcomed here. It is a community of artists after all. When people blame their own problems on the 3dbuzz training content, well that's just not on. Everything on those dvds was well documented in the store and there were many posts about the content, so when someone complains that the content wasn't to their liking...well that's their fault isnt it.

    It's like buying a ferrari and blaming the dealership because it's too fast.

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