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  1. #31
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    Oct 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesdk View Post
    The moment you start forcing players into a particular way of doing things you're taking away their ability to choose how they wish to play. In essence they're no longer playing their game, but yours. I agree there should be consequences for choosing the PvP route, but I would want to make that choice myself, not have it forced on me if my guild should suddenly desire to engage in a guild war.

    One way to do this as I see it - the moment a guild war (or any other PvP oriented actions) is declared your character should have a pop-up displayed telling you it is taking place, and ask whether or not you wish to participate. eg.

    "
    Your guild has initiated hostilities with X-guild. Will you support their cause?
    Warning! You will be vulnerable to attack from the opposing guild, any land you
    own may be captured, and you may aid your guild in attacking opposing guild
    members and capturing their land. Do you wish to participate?

    YES/NO
    "

    Unless you click yes your land would not be open to hostile actions, you would not be able to participate in any PvP actions - and any guild bonuses you had would be suspended until the war was resolved or you decided to join in. There would have to be a significant amount of time between flagging for PvP and unflagging so you couldn't just flip it off if you were about to get attacked. In Star Wars Galaxies the process of switching between PvP enabled and not takes about 5 minutes - during which you can still be attacked. It should probably be longer - I'm thinking an hour or more (24 hours?) in this MMO.

    If the character was offline the pop-up would be the first to greet them when they log in. This would solve the issue of having a player who is offline for whatever reason (RL or connection issues, sleeping if in another time zone, etc..) logging in and risk finding their lands had been captured because their guild had engaged in PvP in the meantime.

    - Mike
    Have you ever played Eve?

  2. #32
    Join Date
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    About the whole "my land got wasted cause my guild declared war and I didn't noticed cause I was offline" stuff... It's dead simple to me.

    Guild should be tagged as Hostile/PvP/whatever or hippie heaven/PvE/etc. or Rol/I really dig I'm an Orch/ etc. type. So when you join a guild you know what you are getting into.
    If a guild wants to change their play "alignment" there is a 1 week delay between the change of alignment and the actual activation of the new alignment. If you didn't played for more than 1 week and you didn't noticed and your house got knocked don't to a pile of sticks it's not the designers fault.
    Let's keep in mind that if you have land thats because you played a lot and you can afford it, and you are a well know char inside the game and if no one of your guild have reach you in any form to let you know that your land could get wiped because of this change of alignment, well it's time to drop that guild.

    Also I don't picture that conquering a piece of land is something that could be achieved by a single party in 1 minute. It should take a considerably larger amount of time so your guild could defend that land whatever if the owner is online or not.

    Speaking of Real estate and crossing this with the travel subject. One of the uses you could give to your land is to build some kind of a shuttle stop or something like so you could add another "station" to the mass transit system and charge some % of that ticket or impose a toll.

    More into the travel system. I don't remember who said about a private shuttle system that you could hire if you have the money, in comparison to buses and taxi cabs. They could have different amount of seats going from one to a full party and charged accordingly so if you have all your party in town you could share the cab and travel together. The time pass faster when you are talking with friends.

    One thing I really don't like in MMOs is the instant travel to dungeons. I think that's killing WoW and is going from an MMO to something lobby based like battle.net.

    Another interesting thing that came out in the RT was the "world feels smaller/larger". With passive travel through the insanely huge world Lee is building the sense of speed you'll have would be compared to riding the TGV or even faster. The sense of speed has a lot to determine how big the world feels and not only the time it takes to get from point A to point B.

    Those are my 2 cents for now

    PS: I realy like this RT meetings. They are way more focused than the class meetings and maybe with this future class meetings are going to be less confusing and messy than before.

  3. #33
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    Jul 2002
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    My thoughts in summary:

    1. Even if we left the idea as described, in which warring guilds could cause you to lose your land, I'm of the opinion that the problems described here would come out in the wash.

    2. While there are certain concessions that can be made for those who get called into Real Life, I really don't feel like a responsible responsible designer with the game's best interests in mind if I'm designing the game around those who aren't playing.

    3. The declaration of war between guilds is something I would leave to the guild leader and/or officers, at least in terms of the systems we put in as developers. If a particular guild wanted to make it more democratic, they can do that on their own (game chat, Vent server, email lists, etc.)

    4. I can think of at least one system that would solve the concern while maintaining these points.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Expansions upon these thoughts:

    1. So you join a guild. You then decide that something else in your life is more important to you (job, family, financial responsibilities, a meaningful sex life) and you walk away from the game for X-amount of time. When you come back, your land is gone due to an opposing faction razing it to the ground and building their own rachthid farm there.

    My take: such are the spoils/that’s the way the cookie crumbles/tough/sucks to be you/etc.

    Here’s why I feel this way: guilds are gangs. Plain and simple. If your gang declares war on another gang while you’re out of town, you best believe your personal effects are in some danger.

    But look to examples of successful guild setups and you’ll see that like-minded players will generally find ways to play together. Even in WoW, you see guilds which advertise themselves as “raiding” guilds, “leveling” guilds, “PvP” guilds, and even “RP” guilds, and Blizzard has put no such system in place to warrant such classifications. The players did it on their own.

    I think if we implemented the system just as described, you’d see the same thing. You’d have people saying, “GuildX is recruiting! We a are a warring guild looking for some serious PvP action, but we do some leveling on the side.” You know going in that these guys like inter-guild wars. Think about that and your land before you join.

    Also, it depends on the value you put on your land. It adds something to consider before you really get tied up in the politics and machinations of a guild.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2. The key point of your argument is (paraphrased), “If PlayerX can’t play the game for some reason, then we should not punish them.”

    My take: we’re not punishing them, but I’m certainly not going to reward them, either.

    There are still some sacred aspects of a game that you just don’t mess with. For instance, don’t let someone’s character get killed or have equipment stolen (etc.) while they’re not logged in. I would still want to keep that convention, since your character is, in the end, the only thing you can rely upon, and in theory, there could be an innumerable quantity of characters in the system.

    Real estate is a whole other beast. Despite the (amazingly) huge size of terrain we’ve been discussing, it’s a safe concept to think of land as a finite resource. Just owning it should have its own inherent risk (and I mean risk in the financial sense), which would come in the form of a tax that must be paid to keep your property. The taxation process could certainly be automated to allow for players who cannot spend every waking moment in the game. However if you run out of money while you’re away, your land could be foreclosed.

    Why? So someone else can get it. There’s only so much to go around, and unless you’re serious about managing it - even if the management process was sub-feeder-bar simple - then you don’t need to be owning it. Let someone else who is more serious about the game have it.

    And before you get in a snit because I use terms like “serious” about the game, please understand how I mean it. Every human being has only a certain amount of energy they can expend on their day-to-day tasks. I define a serious player as one who dedicates at least a fair portion of their daily or weekly energy in consuming game content. There are casual or “weekend only” players out there who take their game time very seriously, but I do not consider them to be “serious” players in the sense I’ve described here.

    I think trying to manage gameplay and character development as well as intense PvP-driven guild lifestyles along with real estate should be reserved for those with at least a little time to dedicate to the task of keeping it going. If that doesn’t include you, if Real Life gets in the way for some reason, then consider dropping your game world responsibilities (less or no real estate, or no less or no guild involvement) to coincide with the way you like to play the game.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    3. When dealing with any group of people, the more voices you listen to, the less actually gets done. We’ve even seen this in our class meetings!

    My take: trust those who run your guild or quit. Or start your own if you know how to do it better.

    I would set some stipulations in place about the idea of warring as a guild and I’ll discuss those stipulations in a moment. My primary point, however, is that only a very small group of controlling entities within a guild should have the power to decide the state of warfare. Realistically, you can’t always count on the guild leader being available 24/7, so you could have “vice leaders” who could also handle the duties.

    However, I feel very strongly against putting it to a vote by all guild members, at least in terms of designing the system such that these votes would be mandatory. You’ll always have a pacifist/overly-cautious player/PvP pansy (sorry if you feel that includes you) who is just too scared at the prospect of losing their land who will always vote down such a move, and if they’re the only guild member online at the moment, they’re holding back the rest of the group.

    Trust has to start somewhere. If you’re in a guild, you need to have that trust in your leadership. If you don’t think they’ve got your best interests in mind, find another guild. Plain and simple.

    At the same time, if a truly democratic system was needed, there’s no reason why players could not handle that on their own by way of the aforementioned chat channels, email lists, etc. As developers, I don’t think we need to be involved.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    4. I think the appropriate establishment of protocol will solve all of these problems while supporting my points here. The following is a simple example of some rules that I feel would make inter-guild warfare very easy to maintain from the real-estate perspective.
    - War can only be declared by guild leadership. This isn’t a country and it’s not like players don’t have anywhere else to go. If you don’t like it, you can drop the guild with a couple clicks of the mouse.

    - Put inter-guild relationships into 1 of 3 categories: Friendly, Hostile, or At War. These relationships break down as follows:
    Friendly: Default setting. You can’t attack each other. You’re just neighbors.

    Hostile: War has been declared by one side but not by the other. Players can attack each other on sight, but cannot raid each others’ land.

    At War: Players and real estate can be attacked by either party
    - In order for two guilds to be considered “at war,” war must be declared by one party and accepted by the other. I would initiate a 24 hour time period for the declaration of war to be accepted by the other party. If this window lapses without an acceptance of the war declaration, then the two guilds are simply considered “Hostile.”

    - In order to declare war, a guild must control a certain amount of land amongst its members.

    - War can be resolved by the complete conquest of one side’s real estate holdings, or by declaration of truce.

    - A declaration of truce can be cast by the leadership of either guild, which will automatically move the status of the guilds to “Hostile.”

    - To help prevent abuse of the system, a declaration of truce cannot halt an attack in progress, meaning that if you’re about to lose your land, you can’t declare truce as a defensive measure. Basically, you should have thought of that sooner.

    - Dropping or quitting the guild will solve your personal “At War” status, but just as with a declaration of truce, this will not change any current attacks on your real estate. So you can’t just wait until you’re attacked and drop the guild to protect your land.

    - An easy way to solve the “what if I’m not a serious player (as defined above) but I’m going to QQ if my guild’s decisions cause me to lose land, I’m going to file complaints, quit the game, hate the developers, et cetera and so forth due to my inability to balance how much responsibility I’m willing to accept simultaneously in the real and virtual worlds” and so on, would be to simply have a declaration of war send off an automatic notification to all parties, similar to World of Warcraft’s “ready check” system for raiding.

    In essence, it’s like saying you agree to go to war. The window I have in mind would say something like “Your guild has declared war on GuildY. Do you sustain this decision?” You may choose between “Yes,” “No,” and “Quit the guild.”

    All those who vote no will be listed to the guild leaders. It does not affect the wartime status (again, I’m not looking to make this a true democracy) but the leaders could then decide if they should go ahead and drop these people (fire them) from the guild. It may sound harsh, but if you’re the guy running a warring guild, you don’t want it populated with non-warring players.

    As an added bonus, players could optionally (as Lee suggested) set up an automatic quit to the guild should they not respond to such a query within, say, a matter of hours.

    - Another system that would bolster this pretty nicely would be a very generic voting system that would send out a similar window to all guild members. This doesn’t have to be related to warfare at all. Guild leaders could put whatever info they wanted into the window, so that all players get a message they could vote on. So you could end up with a window popping up that says, “Your guild leaders have put forth a vote to decide if we should all dress our characters in green from now on,” and you can still choose “Yes,” “No,” or “Quit the guild.”

    Results would be compiled and fed back to the leaders, who can make the findings public at their discretion.

    - Fairness is always a concern, and one thing you don’t want is for one guild to become all-powerful and just start dominating the server, griefing all those who can’t keep up. To resolve this, we’d need a system in place that would only allow declarations of war to be made against players of equal or greater overall power.

    For instance, an algorithm could be generated that creates a “guild score.” This algorithm could take in such factors as number of members, average level (if the system was level based), or other factors as seen fit. In order to declare war on another guild, your guild would have to be equal to or lesser than the guild you’re declaring war against, within a certain threshhold. This means you could declare war on another guild that was more powerful than you if you think you can handle it, but not significantly weaker.
    Okay, that’s all I can think of at the moment. Your thoughts?

  4. #34
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    Apr 2011
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    To me, the PvP status of guild owned land, and private land should be kept entirely separate. For one main reason alone. Those of us who are older and married/partners, like to have our spouses in the same guild. Generally speaking, from my own experience and from those I know, to sum our spouses up in as few words as possible, they are are casual PvE players, where myself and others are more hardcore PvP'ers. So while guilds are built on common playstyles for many, they include people who are there for nothing else, but social reasons.

    Now I suppose there are people who would say, "tough luck". But if the game has the focus of trying to gain as many customers (players) as possible, then for me, I would avoid a game where if I play to relax, it in turn stresses out my wife, I would play something else.

    While there is a certain pull, to have mechanics that affects others, and some people in my eyes, are possibly looking at this situation from more of a hardcore player's position, I think in this situation, personal and guild land should be kept entirely separate. I should also add, unless im totally mistaken and missed something in the other vids I have yet to watch (environment/travel), Buzz, Zak and crew, were talking about keeping them separate (EDIT although looks like Zak put up a pretty comprehensive post on the subject as I posted).
    Last edited by Judge; 05-16-2011 at 05:48 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    To me, the PvP status of guild owned land, and private land should be kept entirely separate. For one main reason alone. Those of us who are older and married/partners, like to have our spouses in the same guild. Generally speaking, from my own experience and from those I know, to sum our spouses up in as few words as possible, they are are casual PvE players, where myself and others are more hardcore PvP'ers. So while guilds are built on common playstyles for many, they include people who are there for nothing else, but social reasons.

    Now I suppose there are people who would say, "tough luck". But if the game has the focus of trying to gain as many customers (players) as possible, then for me, I would avoid a game where if I play to relax, it in turn stresses out my wife, I would play something else.

    While there is a certain pull, to have mechanics that affects others, I think in this situation, personal and guild land should be kept entirely separate. I should also add, unless im totally mistaken and missed something in the other vids I have yet to watch (environment/travel), Buzz, Zak and crew, were talking about keeping them separate.
    No, I would not separate them, though there would be purely guild-owned land.

    You and your wife are not forced to join a warring guild. And if you're a "hardcore PvP" player, I'm guessing you'll compromise to keep your wife happy. (Cracks whip)

    And that is the way it should be. You and your wife like to do things together in real life, and I love the idea of you gaming together. But even in the real world, the activities you take on are controlled by means of a compromise between each of your likes and dislikes. If you were into paintball, but she liked ballroom dancing, one of you will have to make a concession for the other, and the organizers of the paintball and ballroom dancing organizations need not be involved.

    Plus, if there was any kind of hostilities between warring guilds, your wife would already be upset because, even apart from land, she could now be getting ganked by another guild, which would lead to stress, marital issues, possibly you having to sleep on the sofa, etc.



    Besides, you could always start your own guild.


    EDIT:

    Alternatively, if you're seriously "hardcore PvP" and stuff, then man-up and defend your wife's land!
    Last edited by Zak; 05-16-2011 at 05:51 PM.

  6. #36
    Join Date
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    Chronos,

    You mistook my meaning Lee. I was not trying to imply that there was nothing that could be done to adjust the system into working, only that it hadn't been mentioned yet. There are many things about this system that haven't been mentioned yet, and I don't expect it all to be completely thought out in the first discussion of the topic by any means.

    I was just trying to point out that something would need to be done to fix that issue. Yes the idea that you mentioned as a fix would fix that problem, but I think there are also other ways that would fix it that may end up being far better. I have some ideas floating around my head, and I just need to work through them until they are ready for me to post about them.

    I am not saying any of these ideas are bad in their rough concepts, but they will need a lot of work and care to make it an experience that will be enjoyable and worthwhile for the players.

    I love the idea of hard decisions and consequences for the player. But you can't think in a completely real world sense for game logic. In the game the players characters can die, sure, but they don't stay dead. Because of that they will be willing to do things that would have otherwise given them pause in the real world. In the game they needn't fear death, so they can attack and destroy property without risk to their own mortality. They don't have to fear retaliation, nor is there a worry from the law catching up with them and imprisoning them for years or the rest of their lives. What would they a player fear from a hanging?

    In such a world people would do things like burn down and otherwise destroy peoples farms without reason or even fear. They would just do it because they think it is funny, and it is something to do.

    All that being said, it would probably all work without needing more work as is, if it were not for the main thing that separates real life from the game world, and that is that you leave the game world, and yet you never leave the real world, but for once at the end of your life. Because of this, what would work in the real world will not work in the game world.

    If I were actually living inside the game world I could be woken up if my land was under attack to help fight back, and maybe call for help from people that were also living in that world. If I was away from my land, I could receive a message that my land was being attacked, and could rush home to save it with friends.

    Now even if my guild had my cell phone number and called my to warn me, I would not get up in the middle of the night just to play a game and have myself ruined for the next day at work. I would also not leave work to rush home to defend my land in a video game, so if they called me at work, it would be pointless.

    Not to mention what happens when your guild is at war but is sleeping at night, and you have the other guild all decide to get on one night and take all your guilds land. Because of that you will need to deal with how much time it takes to destroy and capture territory.



    Here are some of the things I am thinking about to fix this issue:

    -Having to set times for when it is possible to take land in a war, and have peace times as well. This would be the only way to have a war without it all ending up as to who can stay on longer and or later.

    -Having to give something like 24 hour notices before you can carry out a siege. Then having an agreed upon time, set by the defenders, or in the case of the 24 hours expiring you can just proceed with the attack.

    -Having the destruction, and or taking of the land take a long enough time for the players to gather a group and travel back to their land to defend it.



    Those are just some of the things I have been thinking about. I have no doubt that there is a good way of handling all this, to were we can get out of it the experience that was the initial intent of these ideas, as long as we are thoughtful enough to give a care to the realistic logistics of how players will interact in a game world that they merely visit, and don't actually live in.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zak View Post
    No, I would not separate them, though there would be purely guild-owned land.

    You and your wife are not forced to join a warring guild. And if you're a "hardcore PvP" player, I'm guessing you'll compromise to keep your wife happy. (Cracks whip)

    And that is the way it should be. You and your wife like to do things together in real life, and I love the idea of you gaming together. But even in the real world, the activities you take on are controlled by means of a compromise between each of your likes and dislikes. If you were into paintball, but she liked ballroom dancing, one of you will have to make a concession for the other, and the organizers of the paintball and ballroom dancing organizations need not be involved.

    Plus, if there was any kind of hostilities between warring guilds, your wife would already be upset because, even apart from land, she could now be getting ganked by another guild, which would lead to stress, marital issues, possibly you having to sleep on the sofa, etc.



    Besides, you could always start your own guild.


    EDIT:

    Alternatively, if you're seriously "hardcore PvP" and stuff, then man-up and defend your wife's land!
    LMAO :P

    Well, I think from a marketing point of view (and I guess we have to determine if such things need to be worried about in this project), I think this might be a detrimental idea. There are a number of reasons I can see this going wrong.

    - I see this mechanic scaring casual players.

    - Part of guild life is drama, this mechanic takes PvP out of the hands of individual players. If a Guild master decides he has had enough, or an officer falls out of favor, they could easily break up a guild (or wound it deeply) with this mechanic, risking not only guild land but players personal land.

    - If the benefits of guild land is really great for guilds, losing guild land would be devastating in itself, without the need of losing personal land.

    - You mentioned ganking (I gank a lot myself lol). While its not nice to see my wife get ganked, that is part of the game. However, I think there is a big difference between her running to her corpse, and possibly losing months of work in one foul swoop from losing her land.

    From my perspective, I'm pretty much as hardcore PvP'er as they come (I find humans to be the best AI), and this mechanic as a player, wouldn't bother me, I would be the first demolishing houses lol. However in saying that, I think we should take into account the playestyles of casual players.

    You wrote " While there are certain concessions that can be made for those who get called into Real Life, I really don't feel like a responsible responsible designer with the game's best interests in mind if I'm designing the game around those who aren't playing."
    and
    "If that doesn’t include you, if Real Life gets in the way for some reason, then consider dropping your game world responsibilities (less or no real estate, or no less or no guild involvement) to coincide with the way you like to play the game."

    I understand while you don't want to design a game for those not playing it, but, from a money point of view, those causal players pay just as much, as people who would live on the game, and require so much less GM/hardware/update upkeep. My opinion is, I think we need to keep casual player needs, on par with the needs of the hardcore players. I think just because someone has a life, shouldn't mean they should miss out on what sounds to be a pretty massive game mechanic. I think also as a designer, we have a duty to all paying customers, serious or casual.

    Please understand, for me, while the wife part is a consideration, these mechanics suit my playstlye. Yet I do feel the need to give voice for the more casual players. I'm am not trying to argue or ruffle feathers, just trying to be constructive about the ideas. Now the game is yours to create how you want, and ill be playing pretty much no matter what due to the personal interests/investment in it. But I feel in this mechanic (and I could be wrong), you are looking at this more from the perspective of a serious player. If the desire is to make a hardcore game, great. But it might not be the most popular game amongst casual players. Players = customers = money.

    In the end, if you make losing guild land devastating enough by losing the rewards and benefits tied to that land, you don't need to impact individual players. I liked the idea of individuals deciding what level of risk they place on their own land.
    Last edited by Judge; 05-16-2011 at 06:54 PM.

  8. #38
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    I think you're wanting to soften the idea down to the tapioca level because of a supposed fear that we cannot confirm. To me, it's simple. If you're so scared about losing your land, then be smart about those with whom you associate yourself. Period. It makes warfare a really big decision, and if a guild leadership declares war without the support of their members, they're going to find themselves quickly diminished and consumed in the back blast of their own declaration.

    There's already a model like this in place in WoW. The really high-end gear simply canNOT be attained by your casual player. Period. If it's PvP gear you want, you need to invest hours and hours in the arena to get the points to earn it, and if it's PvE gear, you're investing hours and hours (and more hours) into raiding and hopefully winning a roll. There's a lot of work involved in getting your hands on the good stuff.

    We're already 1-upping that in that a casual player could own land at all. But if their casual tendencies make them afraid of warfare and its results, then simply avoid those guilds that get into it. At worst, start your own guild and advertise that you do not declare war because you're a "homesteading" guild or whatever you want to call it.

    As for a guild leader being able to destroy their own guild with bad decisions, when was this not the norm?

    EDIT: Nope, not done yet.


    Players still have control over what level of risk they place on their own land, in that they can control whether or not they want to stick with a guild that is too warlike for their play style. But I just don't see the point in being able to say "My gang is at war with your gang, but my land is completely safe and you can't touch it, so there."

    No. You step up to that level, you consider the consequences.

    Yes, the game developer economics 101 lesson is well received, but we can't base the heavy hitting decisions on the casual gamer unless we're making a casual MMO. I don't want to make a casual MMO. There can be casual aspects, but I like the idea of rewarding those players who invest the time. And it's not like I'm punishing those who aren't hardcore. They can have land, they can be in a guild. But I do expect them to be intelligent about those with whom they choose to be associated.

    You can argue until nightfall that you can't model real-life in a game, but you can allow for real-world decisions to take place within the game. Furthermore, I believe that when you do this, you improve the overall immersion level. By allowing players the freedom to choose what types of people they want to align themselves with, we allow them to feel like their play style has a true impact on their fortunes within the virtual world. If we take that away, we're restricting - removing - these freedoms from those who are too afraid to enjoy them as well as those who would enjoy the challenge.


    AND ANOTHER THING (New Edit):

    We did mention (albeit briefly) the idea of insurance. If you lost your land in a guild war, I'd go ahead and give an insurance settlement. That's the idea of the insurance in the first place. So it's not like you're empty handed. If you've been smart with keeping your land insured, you'll probably have enough in the settlement to go start over someplace else.
    Last edited by Zak; 05-16-2011 at 07:23 PM.

  9. #39
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    Well, I think we have to agree to disagree, which is cool, it does sound like you are interested in a more serious MMO, which personally suits me fine (might not suit the wife, but she isn't doing the class, which is only only reason I would play without her if she chose not to play), I do fear however, this will scare off a lot of the more causal players.

    I certainly understand your position that you want war declarations to be meaningful and have impact, and by having personal land that is safe no matter what, is against that spirit. I am just not a big fan of the few deciding for the many. And yes, that is mirrored in real life, but sometimes we play games to get away from real life. The suggested mechanics some people put forth of dropping players from guild if war is declared etc, makes things unstable for players. There is nothing to say, a casual player logs on, with views that they might or might not quit due to not having a great deal of fun, but willing to give it a go, log on, find they have been dropped from guild, or their land is gone, and see the decision has really been made for them.

    I also understand that for people to earn great rewards, they have to put in the work to attain it. To me, I was under the impression that personal land is (using WoW terms) like owning your fast speed 280 flying mount, it takes a little bit of work, but something everyone can enjoy. Not akin to end game raiding. That is probably more my mistake.

    (Now for economics 102 :P jk) We all know the tricks of FTP MMO's with micro transactions, they will do everything they can to keep players logged in, even as players sleep, by rewarding them with passive XP, etc. Because they know that every time someone logs off, they might not log on again. It's easier to keep a player playing your game when it's already running, when they go to their computer. So while we don't need to go to that extent, I don't think people should log in to the surprise of "your land is gone" or "you no longer have a guild", because they really have to be into the game to pick themselves up, dust off and keep going.

    To me, while games need to be fun, I think part of the fun, is having lots of people to interact with. There is nothing worse than a great game with a low player population. So I'm cautious about mechanics that might potentially scare people off. At the end of the day, I've had my say, made my argument, you have read it, decided against it, I respect your decision, I won't drag it out any longer.

    EDIT: Yes players will need to be careful of which guilds they join, but I am worried that guilds will become less social, and more goal orientated, if that is even possible, because from experience, no guild out of the many I have come across, over many games, is full of pure PvP'ers, or pure PvE'ers, or consists of all casual players. Guilds are always full of players of mixed playstyles due to the social component of guilds.

    Ill stop debating from.....now lol
    Last edited by Judge; 05-16-2011 at 08:26 PM.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    Dickson, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge View Post
    Ill stop debating from.....now lol
    NOOOOOOOOOO! Judge, I've really enjoyed reading your posts. You've been doing an awesome job of expressing your thoughts! Please keep it up!

    Buzz

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