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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    In space
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    5,428
    Quote Originally Posted by tomo View Post
    Sadly, Zak that's always going to be a problem in this field of work. The trouble is there really isn't anything you can do about leeching. Posting source code in videos doesn't make it any harder for them. I hope you can at least isolate the culprit(s) after going through the 100 class members. I wouldn't be surprised if other member sponsors that are not part of this class are also ease dropping.

    In terms of Big Picture it might help to review the token base pricing model a bit further. Limit non members to buy tokens for a block of videos in any series with the caveat that they have to follow the video sequence in order. It doesn't matter which month it's used in, or which month they signed up. Say that a $20 token gets you a set of videos 1 - 15 (note they don't get access to locked forums). This could be 1-5 of this, & 1-7 of that (let them jump around). Obviously this may seem like a deal for a relatively short series but for training that scales into the 100+ hrs, you be far better off getting a premium membership. Heck even free member access could be limited to a token based system that expires from month to month without accumulation. Some people are missing out on the total value your service is offering as they aren't able to preview the things that interest them. This is a little different from what Jason proposed where as a month of Member Sponsorship gets you to unlock a month worth of videos. The moral of the story here is that free members want in, maybe a token system can wet the appetite towards a Member Sponsorship.

    I'm just putting in my 2 cents here and I don't mean to offend people by it. I cannot say that any part of my idea will work. I understand that their probably is a vast combination of things that you guys battling with every day in the war against piracy that I couldn't even begin to fathom.
    No offense at all. And I do appreciate the suggestions. Really. Even if I don't agree with them.

    Since we're in the first month, there's really no way to show that the token system is already doing exactly what we want it to. It won't become apparent until we're at least into the second month, and even then, only for new sign-ups, which (even then) are only possible if some seats open. As for the price, I really think that $35 is already low enough for what we offer and I really don't want to muddy the waters up any more than they have to be.

    Previews are something I wouldn't mind looking into, but the easy way around that is to simply make the first few videos of a particular series free, which we do in many cases. The MMO class is an exception, which works out well, since even if someone was interested, they probably won't be able to get a seat. There are other logistical concerns with previewing, not all of which i can go into here. It's just one of those things that is kind of like pushing a snowball down a hill. It's a little idea, but by the time it gets down the mountain you have something that could flatten your house

    You also run into a very serious issue at least in the case of the MMO class. That is that you're letting people pay directly for the MMO videos. This is something that we're avoiding altogether. No matter your personal interests in what we have to offer, it needs to be clear that this class is being offered as an exclusive perk to our Member Sponsor subscribers. In that way, it's far easier for someone who doesn't like any particular aspect of the material to simply cancel their subscription and move on.

    Quote Originally Posted by nbyloff View Post
    This sucks. If it comes down to not releasing R&D stuff, it will be disappointing. But I can't say that I am not surprised. There is always people who screw things up for everyone else. It won't change much in the quality of content coming out of this class, but will inhibit class participation in some ways. Boo.
    Not really; the class was marketed from the start as a set of 'over-the-shoulder' videos as we produced an MMO. The little R&D demo was a cute little bonus that we threw out there on a whim. As I sit here and watch our intentions get detracted further and further from the point of the proceedings, I can't help but think that going back to our original idea may be the better choice, and I sincerely hope you can agree with me, or at the very least see where I'm coming from.

    Folks, at the end of the day, please understand that keeping a class like this running is a lot more than it probably seems on the surface. If it was as easy as just "Make videos, give out videos," we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, because we wouldn't care about things like focus, logistics, distribution, Member Sponsor numbers, leeching, sharing content, bypassing security, and many other things that we combat on a daily basis.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by Zak View Post
    Not really; the class was marketed from the start as a set of 'over-the-shoulder' videos as we produced an MMO. The little R&D demo was a cute little bonus that we threw out there on a whim. As I sit here and watch our intentions get detracted further and further from the point of the proceedings, I can't help but think that going back to our original idea may be the better choice, and I sincerely hope you can agree with me, or at the very least see where I'm coming from.

    Folks, at the end of the day, please understand that keeping a class like this running is a lot more than it probably seems on the surface. If it was as easy as just "Make videos, give out videos," we wouldn't be having this conversation at all, because we wouldn't care about things like focus, logistics, distribution, Member Sponsor numbers, leeching, sharing content, bypassing security, and many other things that we combat on a daily basis.
    I see the R&D as an added bonus, and understand where you are coming from. I didn't expect anything like that out of this class. I was just commenting on how it's a shame that we are probably losing these types of added bonuses because some people didn't follow the rules, not that I think that we are potentially going to be denied something I expected when signing up.
    Last edited by nbyloff; 02-21-2011 at 09:14 PM.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    170
    I haven't read this whole thread yet, however, keep in mind that in an MMO, most of the security concerns are on the server. You can hack the client to pieces, raise your hit points, change your name, basically do whatever you want and these changes will only be reflected in the client, not the server. Keep in mind, all Unity is going to be at the end of the day is a client. It's kind of like a web application where the client is Unity instead of a web page, sort of. Anyway, I'm not saying don't secure the client, I"m saying the focus really needs to be on the server as long as your client code doesn't expose vulnerabilites that can be exploited to gain access to the server.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Dickson, TN
    Posts
    5,649
    Quote Originally Posted by jjguzzardo View Post
    I haven't read this whole thread yet, however, keep in mind that in an MMO, most of the security concerns are on the server. You can hack the client to pieces, raise your hit points, change your name, basically do whatever you want and these changes will only be reflected in the client, not the server. Keep in mind, all Unity is going to be at the end of the day is a client. It's kind of like a web application where the client is Unity instead of a web page, sort of. Anyway, I'm not saying don't secure the client, I"m saying the focus really needs to be on the server as long as your client code doesn't expose vulnerabilites that can be exploited to gain access to the server.
    True story!

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    157
    Unless you want other members to post or do similar things that are not acceptable, might I suggest a sticky in the class announcement area because not everyone is going to read this topic.

    The sticky would evolve over time as we hit bumps in the road and go over things that are or are not acceptable. Perhaps it could be called "The MMO Class Culture Thread".

    One paragraph in that thread could be "As class members you may be provided with software designed to stress test or demo targeted parts of the game engine. These demonstrations are specific by design and any forum discussion must remain focussed entirely on the specific intention of the software" etc.

    This idea probably wouldn't have stopped the "hey look, if you lift up the demo's skirt you can see its code" thread that we have here but it might help us students understand more what 3D Buzz expects of us before we upset anyone.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Salisbury, UK
    Posts
    2,812
    Quote Originally Posted by PrototypeII View Post
    [...] might I suggest a sticky in the class announcement area because not everyone is going to read this topic.[...] Perhaps it could be called "The MMO Class Culture Thread".
    Thing is, even making a sticky with big red lettering and huge neon signs saying "READ THIS!", people still won't read it... Even if you offered cake!

    I found
    my current avatar on google, so props to THIS GUY who created the original...

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    157
    Quote Originally Posted by fatgav View Post
    Thing is, even making a sticky with big red lettering and huge neon signs saying "READ THIS!", people still won't read it... Even if you offered cake!
    Haha, you are probably right.

    I'm just trying to think of a way of reducing the possibility for us good students to upset people accidentily cause I'm pretty sure ProjectA didn't know he was going to cause this reaction either.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,088
    I understand where you're coming from Zak and think what ever is best for 3DBuzz should be the course of action. It is probably best that we hit this speed bump now than later when something much more developed was dropped to the community . Either way, we appreciated the demo but I understand your concerns and even though I don't like saying it, keeping to videos drops like you mentioned would be best for 3DBuzz to help prevent anything being leaked.

    -Dane
    You know you want to!

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    170
    I'm seeing a lot of references to cheating and hacking here and I wanted to point out that professional .NET developers use reflector in their day to day work all the time. Using reflector to look at code is not considered hacking or cheating in the .NET world. Reflector is a tool everyone uses to debug 3rd party DLLs and even .NET Framework DLLs. It's also used to figure out undocumented api calls that might help solve a specific problem. Microsoft doesn't even obfuscate all of their code for this very reason. If there are source code security concerns then you use an obfuscator to secure the code. I'm sort of surprised that reflector is being considered a shocking discovery because it's quite normal in the .NET world to use this tool in day to day work and I guess I assumed everyone was aware of this.

    That said, I do understand that 3D Buzz has a policy regarding source code and that's perfectly understandable. It's unfortunate that there are people who will cheat and break policies to share the source code with others. The only thing that can be done is either obfuscate the code or simply don't release the code. It's not the fault of 3D Buzz if they decide not to release demos for security reasons. If I felt people would try to use my code for malicious intent then I would do the same thing. It's just unfortunate that there are people who have no integrity and are will to break policy and share code with people who aren't member sponsors. I've worked in startups with 3 or 4 people and its freaking crazy hard work. Nothing is more disheartening than people stealing your hard work and giving it to others for free. So if the best option is to not hand out demos then so be it. I'd rather have that than run the risk of the class being disrupted because the game's source code falls into the wrong hands.

    Also, I do want to reiterate, that obfuscating code does work and is easy to do and provides the same level of security as compiled code would offer. This could be an option if 3D Buzz is open to considering it.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    153
    I have been playing some with obfuscators and somehow all I played with broke the game after obfuscation so I decided to implement a basic obfuscator which is Unity3D proof. Unity requires some methodnames and typenames to be there which cant be changed even if set to internal or such. Once finished and implemented unit tests I will send the source code to 3DBuzz and they can judge if they find it enough for protecting demo's.

    For now I implemented this:
    - (Cross-assembly) naming obfuscation
    - Control flow obfuscation
    - Tamper detection
    - And some secret stuff I wont tell
    - Unity3D proof

    Early preview:




    Last edited by Project-A; 02-24-2011 at 08:30 AM.
    Bug? That's not a bug, that's a feature.
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