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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    72

    Player versus Player

    I have been trying to set up a mindmap for this topic because I have some cool ideas on this.
    But I had some struggle adding the basics of PvP into it before I can add my ideas,
    so basically I would like to introduce you with my ideas on the forums instead (for now)

    There are 2 kinds of gamers I want to let you know about;
    The ones that want to just consume the game without putting much effort in it.
    And the ones that want to prove there selfs the best and play hardcore to get a nice PvP reputation.

    When it comes to this second category it is critical these players have the ability to gain advantage over other players in being faster and 'smarter'.
    The more complicated the pvp system is the better for them, therefore I have this simple idea that might become quite useful for these guys.

    In World of Warcraft for example, fire ball is a projectile that follows and get closer until collision with your target.
    When your target gets behind a three he is out of line of sight and your spell will not be casted, but when you cast a spell and fire it and THEN he gets behind a three the spell is just gonna go through that three and hits hes target.

    It would be skillful to avoid a spell this way, so making the fireball explode like an Area of Effect spell on collision with the level (mountain, three,...) causing the caster to get aggro from environmental creatures or just miss hes spell.

    This is just one idea of a set I have and will get more over the development of this MMO, I would want to know your thoughts about this and I would also like to see other concepts of ideas like this, maybe even Battle Ground ideas, what ever :-)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
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    It's a great idea which I support, and I'm a pvp maniac, but I think it may be a bit too early with these kinds of suggestions. Or maybe not :P
    Dan 'pezz' Kronholm.
    Currently working on: The MMO class!.
    Previously working on: Game called "Boom Bots", while learning Unity and C#. WIP thread here.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
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    72
    I wanted to keep this idea but in the Story Concept video of the MMO class he told us to get your ideas in mindmaps as soon as possible, so that's why I came out with it so early ^^

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Brazil
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    you forgot the players that want to play hardcore, but not on PvP ;D

    I have tried out one game that focused on PvP only and that used the kind of functionality you're suggestion, where you avoid attacks with your own skill as opposed to some kind of avoidance stat your character has. It's called Bloodlines, you can check it out on Youtube to see how that works.

    It is my personal opinion that that's the sort of thing that works only on PvP, and that punishes players way too harshly if it involves PvE content. Also, it usually makes little sense to make abilities work one way in PvP and a different way in PvE, so it's best to consider the effects that kind of system would have on PvE. Targets could avoid attacks by sheer dumb luck, which is frustrating and annoying when it happens repeatedly, avoided attacks could cause untold grief by hitting things they should not have hit at that moment, such as a big grouo of creatures the player cannot handle, or a single creature the player should not be able to handle on his own, a higher level player of an opposing faction could stand in the way of the attacks on purpose only to annoy the lower level player, or that same higher level player could be hit by accident and decide to "teach that noob a lesson".
    There are ways to make the act of avoiding attacks skillful that are a preferable method in my opinion, such as short duration abilities that let you avoid or reflect certain kinds of attacks, or simpler things, like making sure not to keep your back turned to that warrior with that huge broadsword, making sure your shield is equipped/your force field is active, or even simply making sure you have proper equipment/talents/feats to be able to avoid that fireball.
    Lok'tar Ogar!

  5. #5
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    Jan 2011
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    Geneva, Switzerland
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    72
    Certainly a more realistic behavior of projectiles would be very cool but I think the reason that WoW works that way is that WoW can't do collision testing on the server side as it would be too computationally expensive to do (or if it can do some it has to be very limited). MMOs have to keep things simple on the server side to be able to handle a very large number of players.

    For smaller scale games, it's easier to have the server simulate the world fully and have more action based gameplay such as dodging projectiles.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Buenos Aires, Argentina
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    Quote Originally Posted by pezz View Post
    It's a great idea which I support, and I'm a pvp maniac, but I think it may be a bit too early with these kinds of suggestions. Or maybe not :P
    +1

    But it is also nice to see we all are very excited with the MMO Class and that thoughts are flowing all over the place...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Codexus View Post
    Certainly a more realistic behavior of projectiles would be very cool but I think the reason that WoW works that way is that WoW can't do collision testing on the server side as it would be too computationally expensive to do (or if it can do some it has to be very limited). MMOs have to keep things simple on the server side to be able to handle a very large number of players.

    For smaller scale games, it's easier to have the server simulate the world fully and have more action based gameplay such as dodging projectiles.
    Diedy of course, it's good to get all ideas out here

    Codexus: Warhammer Online has full on player collission detection, and it actually has worked pretty well. The thing that didn't work that well is that when there's an enemy close by, all collissions even on friendly players are switched on. So in the heat of battle, you can risk getting stuck behind -friendly- players. So I do not think it's impossible to do, nor have the server compute where a missile hits in x miliseconds time and which objects are in the way in the future time.

    We are not back in the early 90's mmo times any more (not a jib at you at all, just can't formulate it any better), we have vastly more bandwidth, cpu power and server power, so we gotta think a bit out of the box - We can have loads of complex stuff going on, as long as it's coded optimally When you've played with socket programming you realize you can send a -lot- of stuff down the pipe without much hassle.
    Last edited by pezz; 02-07-2011 at 01:37 PM.
    Dan 'pezz' Kronholm.
    Currently working on: The MMO class!.
    Previously working on: Game called "Boom Bots", while learning Unity and C#. WIP thread here.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    91
    I am very interested in a PVP MMO. I like the idea of different players being better in different skills, and the fight coming down to who exploits the other's weakness better. One thing I have been thinking hard about is how to handle cheating. No one is going to play for very long if its easy to cheat, or cheaters don't get caught.

    I am going to mind map that in a PVP system, but I forsee an audit system that happens near real time that it can be. The gist of the idea is you get killed by another player. But since the server receives all the information about attacks & movements from other player, perhaps that player was speed hacking or altered the damage their weapon did against you. It would cause way too much latency to audit each command against the DB to see if your opponent can really run that fast, hit that hard, etc...

    But as commands are received, I pictured an audit server that compares the command received vs. the actual known ability of the player. If they pass, nothing happens. If it is found they cheated, a type of rollback could occur. And potentially that cheater put on a temp ban. Eventually a permanent ban if it continues. This audit system could also be distributed where the server is just a task tracker like in Hadoop's map reduce, sending jobs to other computers (potentially game subscribers who hate cheating, but aren't currently playing) to distribute the computations.

    I really hope this is a PVP type MMO. And would love to hear others ideas about how to make sure cheating is squashed.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Scotland
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    I have my own ideas in relation to PvPs but I'm saving them for a later time near when we start thinking about PvP but I will say, we do have to try and get a balance between PvP and PvE as experience has told me, there is a good number of people who enjoy one or the other or both and concentrating on only one mode can put people who prefer the other game mode off.

    Balance is important when it comes to PvP and PvE content.
    A wise man once said to me, "life is hard, but it's harder if you're stupid" - Duthos

  10. #10
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    nbyloff: Buzz mentioned in the first video, or was it the second, that they'll have the game completely play out on the server. That's pretty standard for mmo's these days. Leave nothing up to the client. Let the client be a dumb client, almost like a video player, where you can only do allowed actions.

    Stuart: Aye I agree completely. Some people play for one thing, other people for something else. Gotta be something for everyone
    Dan 'pezz' Kronholm.
    Currently working on: The MMO class!.
    Previously working on: Game called "Boom Bots", while learning Unity and C#. WIP thread here.

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