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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olson.dev View Post
    I tried getting that through in a previous post and it didn't stick, hence my handout. I'm going to go out on a limb here... proper coding practices should be taught immediately, whether through handout or not. Why force every developer to learn EVERYTHING from trial and error? Sure, there are some things you should learn from trial and error... but, proper coding practices? You don't learn all of those through trial and error. Now that I've posted more than I intended...
    I have to disagree with you here. Being an absolute beginner I'll tell you that it is THIS thinking from other training material and teachers that made learning so difficult for me. Looking back. I would do the same thing, when someone wants to learn something conceptually, I would approach it the proper way too. BUT! In this guys case, I agree with ZanQuance. Once I get in my mind a certain way of thinking, right or wrong, I won't follow an abrupt change from that mindset. Solving the problem at hand allows me to figure out that particular problem, which becomes a tool I can pull from on the next project. Having an arsenal of tools will allow you to approach a project from the proper method at its conception. But only experience will help with that, which we don't have yet. So its best to help us fix our problem from our level and point of view.

    For me, this is why I think 3DBuzz succeeds where all others fail, and not just with programming. They make it clear we won't understand everything right away. Then they start with simple concepts, then we do projects based on those concepts. Then it builds in complexity in a structured way. Soon I start thinking and creating on my own based on those concepts. Eventually we'll get a chance to do something advanced where we pull from all the concepts at once and we may need a lesson on the proper way to approach it.

    This work way better for me than being dumped in the deep end, saying "do it like this..."

    Keep going 93_Confirmed. What you're doing is the only way I can learn.
    The sleepless one! ZZzzzz

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
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    38
    Quote Originally Posted by ZanQuance View Post
    Word of advice! since this is your first language, try not to bite of more than you can chew! start with simple projects first. I know that making Hyperion and Cannon seem like simple games, that don't really accomplish what a person who wishes to get into game development really want to create. But they hammer in the basics, which must become second nature to you when doing any advanced programming.
    I've definitely been taking it slow. I read through relatively easy tutorials and then work the code into my version of Cannon. I take time to really understand the concepts and write detailed comments to keep track of my work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZanQuance View Post
    If you want to turn Cannon3 into a typical Vertical scrolling-shooter, then perhaps not splitting the map plane would be a wiser choice. Most arcade games of that type use one large map, larger than your viewport size which can be scrolled side to side a bit, and also when they reach the end for the boss fight, the map stops scrolling, or gets replaced with a loopable background like water or clouds.

    If you are after a simple scrolling starfield background, there are easier ways to do this than with many pictures that repeat
    I considered one large map but I had already been working on horizontal scrolling in a tutorial so I wanted to incorporate those principles into Cannon. If I were to do it that way you suggested (in a 640x480 viewport) than wouldn't the map have to be extremely long or is is there a way to "cheat" and have it looped?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ins0mniak View Post
    Once I get in my mind a certain way of thinking, right or wrong, I won't follow an abrupt change from that mindset. Solving the problem at hand allows me to figure out that particular problem, which becomes a tool I can pull from on the next project. Having an arsenal of tools will allow you to approach a project from the proper method at its conception. But only experience will help with that, which we don't have yet. So its best to help us fix our problem from our level and point of view.
    I couldn't have said it any better. Once I get an idea in my head and a particular way of coding it, I am determined to find the solution to make it work even if it's inefficient. I file that away and there will come a time where I learn of a new and improved way of doing that idea and I'll have the prior experience and knowledge to reference. This learning method has been working well for me so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ins0mniak View Post
    For me, this is why I think 3DBuzz succeeds where all others fail, and not just with programming. They make it clear we won't understand everything right away. Then they start with simple concepts, then we do projects based on those concepts. Then it builds in complexity in a structured way. Soon I start thinking and creating on my own based on those concepts. Eventually we'll get a chance to do something advanced where we pull from all the concepts at once and we may need a lesson on the proper way to approach it.

    This work way better for me than being dumped in the deep end, saying "do it like this..."

    Keep going 93_Confirmed. What you're doing is the only way I can learn.
    Again, very well put. I got hooked on 3D Buzz when I bought Unreal III: Collector's Edition. It had over 20 hours of tutorials from Jason and Logan and their teaching style worked so well that I knew it was my best bet for jumping into the (somewhat) terrifying world of computer programming. I'm glad I took the plunge and am eagerly looking forward to Vol II and III. I just wish I gotten into this earlier in my life!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by Ins0mniak View Post
    I have to disagree with you here. Being an absolute beginner I'll tell you that it is THIS thinking from other training material and teachers that made learning so difficult for me. Looking back. I would do the same thing, when someone wants to learn something conceptually, I would approach it the proper way too. BUT! In this guys case, I agree with ZanQuance. Once I get in my mind a certain way of thinking, right or wrong, I won't follow an abrupt change from that mindset. Solving the problem at hand allows me to figure out that particular problem, which becomes a tool I can pull from on the next project. Having an arsenal of tools will allow you to approach a project from the proper method at its conception. But only experience will help with that, which we don't have yet. So its best to help us fix our problem from our level and point of view.

    For me, this is why I think 3DBuzz succeeds where all others fail, and not just with programming. They make it clear we won't understand everything right away. Then they start with simple concepts, then we do projects based on those concepts. Then it builds in complexity in a structured way. Soon I start thinking and creating on my own based on those concepts. Eventually we'll get a chance to do something advanced where we pull from all the concepts at once and we may need a lesson on the proper way to approach it.

    This work way better for me than being dumped in the deep end, saying "do it like this..."

    Keep going 93_Confirmed. What you're doing is the only way I can learn.
    Ya know, you're entitled to your opinion but the act of sharing your opinion hasn't changed mine any, even if 93_Confirmed agrees with you. I found I learned faster and more effectively by having multiple concepts thrown at me at once. I have two friends who are both programmers as well as two coworkers that would agree with me. I have another coworker that would probably disagree with me. I think it all matters who you are and how you learn. I'm just giving advice in a manner that I wish/liked to receive it in. Multiple concurrent concepts. In the end, I think it's probably best that new programmers visit a forum like this so they can read senior developers/architects (just assuming, I have no idea where you are) discuss some of the higher level topics just so they get some exposure.

    Also, I think you're generalizing about 3D Buzz far too much. The XNA videos definitely cater to the beginner but they do not always go about doing things improperly just so they can get a concept across. That's why they have their "whiteboard" videos beforehand - to explain multiple concepts before they implement them working together in code. And honestly, I don't think my code modifications were too extreme where 93_Confirmed couldn't understand the reason for all of them. Let me know if I'm in the wrong, 93_Confirmed, and I'll be glad to elaborate on anything you didn't grasp about my changes.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sylvania, OH
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    363
    I simply agreed with ZanQuance that addressing his error within the realm of his own code would be invaluable to helping him understand the concept he was unclear on and help prevent him from making the same mistake again.

    It's like cooking... If he complains that his pancakes aren't light and delicious like they are at Ihop, it isn't going to do us any good to show him your waffle recipe, even if it is easier to make in the waffle iron. The problem is in his recipe, and fixing that might make a fantastic waffle too!

    And not to cherry pick your reply, but when did I EVER say 3DBuzz "goes about doing things improperly"? Relax, no one's making a slight against your coding prowess. No need to put words in my mouth while slapping Buzz in the process.
    The sleepless one! ZZzzzz

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
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    234
    Quote Originally Posted by Ins0mniak View Post
    I simply agreed with ZanQuance that addressing his error within the realm of his own code would be invaluable to helping him understand the concept he was unclear on and help prevent him from making the same mistake again.
    There was more to it than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ins0mniak View Post
    It's like cooking... If he complains that his pancakes aren't light and delicious like they are at Ihop, it isn't going to do us any good to show him your waffle recipe, even if it is easier to make in the waffle iron. The problem is in his recipe, and fixing that might make a fantastic waffle too!
    Albeit your analogy isn't entirely accurate, this is just a restatement of your first post, to which I already replied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ins0mniak View Post
    And not to cherry pick your reply, but when did I EVER say 3DBuzz "goes about doing things improperly"? Relax, no one's making a slight against your coding prowess. No need to put words in my mouth while slapping Buzz in the process.
    You didn't. And I didn't say you did. So, don't put words in my mouth. And I don't think I slapped Buzz in the face. I was giving Buzz credit for catering to the beginner but - after a certain point, he trusts his student understands enough to take on multiple concepts at once. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding my "coding prowess". I made no such comment defending it. I defended my reasons for "teaching" by making a few more edits than ZanQuance did.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by Olson.dev View Post
    I think it all matters who you are and how you learn. I'm just giving advice in a manner that I wish/liked to receive it in.
    That's really what it boils down to. Everyone has their own learning style and their own teaching style. I have strong tendency to get too over ambitious when learning new software and starting new projects so I'm working hard to take things more slowly and really dig into the fundamentals. I'll take whatever help and advice I can get and break it all down into a format that's easy for me to understand

    Quote Originally Posted by Olson.dev View Post
    And honestly, I don't think my code modifications were too extreme where 93_Confirmed couldn't understand the reason for all of them. Let me know if I'm in the wrong, 93_Confirmed, and I'll be glad to elaborate on anything you didn't grasp about my changes.
    The code modifications were just fine. Like I said, the biggest mental block I had was understanding how the y coordinates are treated in computer programming. Once that was explained, everything clicked and I've learned a great deal from what was a frustrating situation.

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