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  1. #41
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    You should really read a lot of those comments as they actually point out the facts that you seem to be missing...
    Huh? What dose that have to do with anything? In fact, I've said the _exact_ same thing in the past before so I don't know what you are trying to prove.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    I think it was clear that I meant the difference between a programmer and non-programmer was a person motivated to be the best at what he does and a person who either
    a) Tinkers with programming because he is not committed (or just wants to mess around and have fun or whatever. Nothing wrong with that!) or
    b) Has no interest in becoming better or good and just "wants teh codez" in order to "cheat" at programming for money or social reasons.
    You think you made that clear without ever saying anything like it? You said:
    There is no good reason why a well written engine can't provide extensibility though C++ itself as well as a scripting language. That way, both C++ developers and non-programmers can extend the engine.
    Regardless, even if someone was just tinkering around as a hobby and wasn't committed, they might write one of the best programs ever. And according to you they would be a non-programmer while having written something your "programmers" could not or had not. How does that make any sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    Particularly this answer:
    There are basically two types of people in the world, those who when discovering a gap in their knowledge attack it until they understand it completely or those who ignore it and are defensive when any conversation starts to veer towards their gaps.
    The latter group sounds like somebody I know.
    You make me chuckle, Nelson. Do you really thing that I or anyone else at 3DBuzz are the sort of people to shy away from learning more and filling gaps in our knowledge? More importantly, when the conversation veers towards UnrealScript and games and scripting in general, you are not veering towards my gaps, you veering directly into my wheelhouse. If you were to discuss sculpting, then you would have a point.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    Huh? What dose that have to do with anything? In fact, I've said the _exact_ same thing in the past before so I don't know what you are trying to prove.
    The quote I quoted means, that language doesn't matter...

    "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~Rich Cook

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffejnosliw View Post
    You think you made that clear without ever saying anything like it? You said:

    Regardless, even if someone was just tinkering around as a hobby and wasn't committed, they might write one of the best programs ever. And according to you they would be a non-programmer while having written something your "programmers" could not or had not. How does that make any sense?
    Potential is not skill. Programming is not an inherit ability. A person who is good at programming is a person who spends time programming; and a person who spends time programming and likes it and is interested in advancing their skill would branch out into more difficult skills and thus attain what I have defined as a "programmer."

    You make me chuckle, Nelson. Do you really thing that I or anyone else at 3DBuzz are the sort of people to shy away from learning more and filling gaps in our knowledge? More importantly, when the conversation veers towards UnrealScript and games and scripting in general, you are not veering towards my gaps, you veering directly into my wheelhouse. If you were to discuss sculpting, then you would have a point.
    Yes, I think you and some other people in this community are more interested in protecting their ego then branching out into other areas of programming and skill that you are not already comfortable in. I think you are afraid of C++ yourself; thinking that it is far too complex for a beginner perhaps because you were not as dedicated enough when you started programming to realize how many doors it opens early on.

    You and others think that others are not interested in programming if of itself but are interested in results. I think you believe that beginners hold such little potential that they cannot possibly branch into "advanced" skills early on.

    I am not a prodigy or even close. In fact, the only reason I started programming was due to my poor social skills - and I found something that made me feel like I can actually build something. I started C++ when I was 12 - clearly past knowledge/math knowledge/maturity/age has nothing to do with how a person may succeed in doing something like start with C++.

    I got great results from that experience. Many doors were open to me right off of the bat. I became more and more knowledgeable of how a computer works. Language I would learn in the future came much easier to me then otherwise.

    That is my experience, and that is what I base my advice on; if you have an experience where starting with an "easy road to results" language made you a better and more knowledgeable programmer faster then please do tell.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    Potential is not skill. Programming is not an inherit ability. A person who is good at programming is a person who spends time programming; and a person who spends time programming and likes it and is interested in advancing their skill would branch out into more difficult skills and thus attain what I have defined as a "programmer."
    Jeff isn't talking about potential, he's talking what you presribe as being a programmer vs. a non-programmer and your attitude toward them.

    Programming isn't an inherit ability, but many of the skills used in programming are enhanced by inherit abilities. For example, some people are naturally better at math because they can deal with numbers better than others can. Others are better at breaking large amounts of information into smaller chunks that they can process quicker. Both these examples are someones inherit abilities that can be further focused and trained over time.

    Some people will be better programmers out there because they have the inherit abilities that push them over others, regardless of how hard they try. That's just life. Not all people can become like Michaelango or Einstein regardless of how much effort they put into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    Yes, I think you and some other people in this community are more interested in protecting their ego then branching out into other areas of programming and skill that you are not already comfortable in. I think you are afraid of C++ yourself; thinking that it is far too complex for a beginner perhaps because you were not as dedicated enough when you started programming to realize how many doors it opens early on.
    You are not getting it and this is something you have fundamentally argued about for years here and you still don't understand the argument nor really care for it other than your own opinion about the matter.

    C++ is a fine language, some of us do know it and some of the ones that you are accusing in this post know a good number of programming languages. Some of us just realize that not every problem should be solved with a single language. You yourself have stated that C++ is a general purpose language that is good for many different things. The inherit thing in all general purpose items is that they excel at very few things, if any. C++ is a horrible language for string processing, perl is MUCH better. C++ is a good language for game programming, but it's not the only one out there that is good at it. Flash, Java, C, Basic, etc... all good programming languages for making games, it depends on the type of game that you want to be creating that dictates your choice in language to learn. There's no point in learning C++ when you want to create Flash games or Java games.

    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    You and others think that others are not interested in programming if of itself but are interested in results. I think you believe that beginners hold such little potential that they cannot possibly branch into "advanced" skills early on.
    Results are what drive the majority of people, this is just pure and simple fact. Look at all of the failed community projects and invidual projects out there that have failed because they couldn't see where they were going.

    You also assume that advanced skills are somehow unique to C++ and that C# has no need for advanced skills or understanding. This is bullox. There is extremely little that you can do with C++ that you cannot do in C#. There are a handful of topics, if that, that you cannot learn by learning C# vs. learning C++.

    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    I am not a prodigy or even close. In fact, the only reason I started programming was due to my poor social skills - and I found something that made me feel like I can actually build something. I started C++ when I was 12 - clearly past knowledge/math knowledge/maturity/age has nothing to do with how a person may succeed in doing something like start with C++.

    I got great results from that experience. Many doors were open to me right off of the bat. I became more and more knowledgeable of how a computer works. Language I would learn in the future came much easier to me then otherwise.

    That is my experience, and that is what I base my advice on; if you have an experience where starting with an "easy road to results" language made you a better and more knowledgeable programmer faster then please do tell.
    Well, by learning C++ instead of learning punch cards, you took the "easy road to results". By learning C++ instead of connecting vacuum tubes, you took the "easy road to results". This is the fundamental piece that you cannot seem to wrap your head around. Programming is about problem solving, and problem solving is about using the tools you need to get the solution done. I can build a house with a hammer or a nail gun, does one method somehow make my house a better house? What you are saying with your arguments is that because I used a nail gun, my house is less of an accomplishment than if I'd used a hammer. And that is your personal judgement, but at the end of the day, my house is done and fully functional and I've not lost anything in the experience because I chose to use, what was in my opinion, the better tool for the job.

    "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~Rich Cook

  6. #46
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    Right now I am trying to learn the concepts of game/graphics programming. Now I have a semi-good understanding of C++ programming, I have done it for 4-5 years on and off, but I have yet to fully understand some of the more complex features templates and memory management(I mean I understand the basics of pointer but memory management is more than just). Now from my point of view, I thought that learning C#/XNA would be a better environment to learn to the concepts of game programming as it almost eliminates the need for me to manage my memory which I think is a big time consuming issue, I mean it does not seem like memory leaks an very easy to debug and I don't think that memory management is at the core of general game programming(but more the core of quality C++ programming). Also learning C# seems like a good programming language to learn as well(at lest for windows programming). I mean a Point2D, Vector3D, etc... have the same functionality in C#/XNA that is does in C++(are at least it should).

    Now sure, if I wanted to get into the professional game programming business and work at a studio like Blizzard or EA, yea I would be nothing as much of C++ programming as I can but I can grantee that there is as chase to a zero chance of me being able to even get an interview with the gaming industry being very competitive that the only way I could ever break into the gaming industry is by making and publishing a game myself(or with a small team of programmers) and last time I checked, gamers don't care what language the game they are playing is in, as long as it looks descent and is fun(with that later for me being more important which has zero to do with programming).

    Also I have zero interested in build a game engine myself anymore because I will never have access to the kind of resources, amount of mans hours, or talent(I mean some engines have multiple programmers that just focus on small parts of the engine like networking, sound, rendering, etc…) that go into engines like the Source Engine, Unreal, or even Unity3D(I am pretty sure they don't have access to at least the resources like the other two do). Also I have heard that quite a few games are based off of a few of these well known engine and a large portion of the game is just using the scripting language the engine supports(of course small of the code is in C++ or even ASM but a majority of the code is just scripting).

    Also for the person that suggested Java, I have never liked java for one reason of another. Also a lot of programmers I have used that used java seemed slow, buggy and memory instinctive(Not that C# + .net +XNA is not memory instinctive) and maybe it was the programmers who used it but I don’t think I will ever try to learn Java fully unless required by current employment.

  7. #47
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    Also about the "programmer" vs "non-programmer" thing, well Counter-Strike is one of the most long last popular Multiplayer FPS shooters I know and it was first starting just as a mod(just scripting for the half-life engine).

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zecster View Post
    Also about the "programmer" vs "non-programmer" thing, well Counter-Strike is one of the most long last popular Multiplayer FPS shooters I know and it was first starting just as a mod(just scripting for the half-life engine).
    Both Half Life 1 (quake 2) and Half Life 2 (Source) are extended (modded) with C++; not scripts.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    Both Half Life 1 (quake 2) and Half Life 2 (Source) are extended (modded) with C++; not scripts.
    Very good, but I was talking about Counter-Strike which was originally a mod for Half-Life and I am very doubtful that they used any c++ at that point(they might now for the never version like Counter-Strike Source but i am not sure). My point was that great games can be made by note even touching c++ code.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    Could you give me an example where optimizing code for a PS3/Wii/PC doesn't improve performance on all systems (or actuality hinders performance on other systems)? The only difference between PC and Consoles is that Consoles have almost completely fixed hardware specs. Other then that, each system is advanced enough to where general common-sense practices is plenty to write fast enough code.

    You will of course need to plan ahead for cross-system compatibility. But it's completely doable and only possible in C++.

    Incorrect.

    The Valve team actually prefers to work in C, as most if not all of their titles are written in C, that information comes from our Prof who talked to a Halflife dev member.

    Basically there are still people out there thinking C is superior to C++, just like people like Nelson will fight till the end that C++ is superior to C#, missing the whole point.

    As per console programming Nelson, (PS3, DS, Wii) you are more than often at a much lower level programming much closer to the hardware, without any documentation from the Manufacturer, tossed with a couple libraries that you 6/10 times have to figure out yourself how they work.

    Again that is backed up by our Prof who actually owns a Game company that produces titles for Wii and DS.
    Last edited by TF242; 01-26-2009 at 08:41 AM.

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