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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    I am attempting to figure out if you are joking or not, as you seem to have quite a twisted sence of humor... Are you?
    Yes yes I'm sorry. I'll go to bed now. Night night

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by owensd View Post
    Actually, EP is extended play for vinyl records and ESP is 'extra-sensory-perception'. Good 'ol google to the rescue!!


    You know... in all my years of programming I've only EVER used registers ONCE in my life... and that was a school assignment.
    You know what? Here you go again. You quote my words OUT of CONTEXT then do not PROVIDE the REST of the ******* meaning to THEM.

    WHERE in my post did I say that USING registers will help you make games? NEVER. Stop twisting my words around. I said that a person who likes to code for the sake of a passion would want to know about how a procsessor works inside. How it makes your programs work. Of course, knowlage of registers will not make you code better, but it will unveil the mysteries of how the procsessor works. Do you find the concept of registers interesting? Do you find how the procsessor works interesting? If you are here, and in this paticular fourm I am sure the answer to both of those questions is yes. That, in itself, dose not prove a single thing about how well you can makes games. However, it is a good indication and resulf of a passion of writing code. Which, will indirectly manifest itself into better code written by you.

    Re-read my posts, and don't quote me out of context, and stop looking for a fight becuse I am sick of the constent **** you throw at me each chance you can quote somthing I said, even if it was an honost mistake, out of context.
    Last edited by ffejnosliw; 05-08-2007 at 01:30 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    And one more thing, I don't think you understood what I said. It boils down to A) being an artist or B) being a scientist. Programing is a science. I proved this way back when, and I don't feel like doing that again, but I will say that programing is figuring out how do things the best way. Best, of course, is relative to the domain of the app you are programing. Being a game designer is an artist's job. They don't give a rats ass about how things get done, but they have a passion to design things like stories, and do art, excettea. XNA is advertised as a 'merger' of science and art. I will never think that big real-world commerical games will be ever programed by people who do not have a passion in programing. The job of an artist and a programer may blur, but they will never merge. XNA, dispite how well it abstracts out things to make redundent code non-existent, will never be the bridge between design and development. That is all I am saying in my posts.
    I don't even know how to respond to this statement. I mean, seriously...you "proved" that programming is a science? Ummm...ok.

    According to the law, more specifically copyright law, source code is considered a work of literature. You wouldn't argue that writers are scientists would you? I would actually argue the opposite, that programming is an art. If you have a passion for programming, then you most likely see code as elegant and beautiful. This sounds like art to me. Of course, not everyone who programs is an artist, just as not everyone who draws or paints is an artist. But, those who do it well and have a love for it...I would definitely consider them artists. It's really all about perspective and how you choose to look at things. Your perspective seems to be very closed-minded.

    As far as programmers of big, commercial games all having a passion for programming, I won't say that is necessarily wrong, but I would argue that what they really have a passion for is making games much the same way that game designers, who aren't all artists by the way, have a passion for creating games.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    You know what? Here you go again. You quote my words OUT of CONTEXT then do not PROVIDE the REST of the ******* meaning to THEM.
    Um... ok... if you're talking about the EP comment and ESP comment... that was directed at Toastage's joke; after all, it was him I was quoting on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    WHERE in my post did I say that USING registers will help you make games? NEVER. Stop twisting my words around. I said that a person who likes to code for the sake of a passion would want to know about how a procsessor works inside. How it makes your programs work. Of course, knowlage of registers will not make you code better, but it will unveil the mysteries of how the procsessor works. Do you find the concept of registers interesting? Do you find how the procsessor works interesting? If you are here, and in this paticular fourm I am sure the answer to both of those questions is yes. That, in itself, dose not prove a single thing about how well you can makes games. However, it is a good indication and resulf of a passion of writing code. Which, will indirectly manifest itself into better code written by you.
    I never said anything about registers and games... I said that I've never needed to use them in a real world situation and I have been programming for over 10 years (almost 4 professionally). Never once in that time have I had to care about them either.

    As to whether or not I find registers and processors interesting... not really. It's cool in an abstract way I guess, but I don't care how they work. Do I know... yes, but do I care... no.

    "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~Rich Cook

  5. #25
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    How is it not a science? Let's define programing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_programming
    The process of writing source code requires expertise in many different subjects, including knowledge of the application domain and algorithms to implement the desired behavior.
    Right there should be a good indication that programing is a method of achiving "desired behavior" from the computer. That has nothing to do with art. In your comment, all science is art, as scientific journals can also be considered lititurature, and are also protected under copywrite laws. Your whole argument falls apart right there... Anyhow, getting back on track, a science is defined as such:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
    In the broadest sense, science (from the Latin "to know") refers to any systematic methodology which attempts to collect accurate information about reality and to model this in a way which can be used to make reliable, concrete and quantitative predictions about future events and observations. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.[1] Science as defined above is sometimes termed pure science to differentiate it from applied science, which is the application of scientific research to specific human needs.
    So what we have here is that science is somthing that is refined, studied, then applied to achive what can be called "desired behavior". How is programing NOT a science? In every sence of the word it is.

    Art is defined:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art
    Art is that which is made with the intention of stimulating the human senses as well as the human mind and/or spirit.
    The designers of the game are the people responsable for stimulating the human senses, the programers are just there to fit all the pieces together, and get the designer's ideas into a medium that can be acsessed by all those who own the target hardware.

    So I am a bit confused how you justifyed programing being not a science, but an art.

  6. #26
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    If a programmer and artist are both working on creating visual arts then sure...they're both being artsy and the line blurs between programmer and artist. There are jobs that require a person to be both. I don't think you can outright draw a line between the two in any case..

    This would all be much simpler if you all took the time to look up JellyBean++...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZwDgu4juQ
    Last edited by Toastage; 05-08-2007 at 01:46 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by owensd View Post
    Um... ok... if you're talking about the EP comment and ESP comment... that was directed at Toastage's joke; after all, it was him I was quoting on that.
    No, I was refereing to your post about how you never used regisers but once.

    I never said anything about registers and games... I said that I've never needed to use them in a real world situation and I have been programming for over 10 years (almost 4 professionally). Never once in that time have I had to care about them either.

    As to whether or not I find registers and processors interesting... not really. It's cool in an abstract way I guess, but I don't care how they work. Do I know... yes, but do I care... no.
    Well, then I have to say that I do not think that is a good attitutude about computers, and to be frank, it feels like much of what you say here is said in some way to prove me wrong or start a fight and not how you acually feel about the situation at hand. I don't know you, but I doubt you sat back in your classroom twidling your thumbs waiting for the class to be over becuse of how much you don't care about how procsessors work. They are faciniating machines, and I cannot possably fathom how a fellow programer can not 'care' about how they work. Maby you are not as deticated to programing as I origonally thought, which is fine, it's just I have been lead on to an incorect conclusion all this time.

    The end of the world comes when everyone cecsess to care about how technology works.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    How is it not a science? Let's define programing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_programming


    Right there should be a good indication that programing is a method of achiving "desired behavior" from the computer. That has nothing to do with art. In your comment, all science is art, as scientific journals can also be considered lititurature, and are also protected under copywrite laws. Your whole argument falls apart right there... Anyhow, getting back on track, a science is defined as such:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science


    So what we have here is that science is somthing that is refined, studied, then applied to achive what can be called "desired behavior". How is programing NOT a science? In every sence of the word it is.

    Art is defined:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art


    The designers of the game are the people responsable for stimulating the human senses, the programers are just there to fit all the pieces together, and get the designer's ideas into a medium that can be acsessed by all those who own the target hardware.

    So I am a bit confused how you justifyed programing being not a science, but an art.
    Well... don't forget about the ambiguity of computer science because many people think of it as an art... it even says so in the links you quoted: "There is an ongoing debate on the extent to which the writing of programs is an art, a craft or an engineering discipline.[1]".

    There are two parts to getting the desired behavior: design and implementation. The design aspect is highly creative and is an art; just as you have guidelines to help you paint and mix colors together, you have guidelines to help create the structure of the program you want. Then you have the implementation which is mostly scientific, but also can contain pieces that require a great deal of creativity.

    Is software design science? Yes. Is it art? I say yes here as well.

    "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." ~Rich Cook

  9. #29
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    I would like to have another go at yelling and screeming and swearing, but it seems to have upset the mods... So I will restrain myself.

    Let's take all of what I have said in this entire thread and write it in one paragraph:
    There are two parts to getting the desired behavior: design and implementation. The design aspect is highly creative and is an art; just as you have guidelines to help you paint and mix colors together, you have guidelines to help create the structure of the program you want. Then you have the implementation which is mostly scientific, but also can contain pieces that require a great deal of creativity.
    With a few changes, that is the WHOLE POINT I have been trying to make. OK, fine, I guess you just wanted to disagree with me, get me ranting, then repost my points in your words and get the credit
    Game Design and game Development (used interchanibly with Implamentation) are two different things, one being an art and the other a sicence. However, I still do not agree that:
    but also can contain pieces that require a great deal of creativity.
    It dose not require as much creativity as it dose taking bits and peaces of tried-and-true code 'patters' and peacing them together to make what you want. That is sicence.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by <> View Post
    In your comment, all science is art...
    Why stop there? I'll go you one better and say that anything you do or anyone does can be art. It is all relative which brings me back to perspective. Yours seems limited as you seem set on programming being classified as one thing and one thing only. I am perfectly willing to classify programming as a science. It is called computer science after all. At the same time, when done by someone with a passion and great talent, it can become art. My perspective isn't limited. I can see both sides. I can see that using xna, C#, and other frameworks does not classify someone in a certain category, the non-real programmers who don't have a passion for programming. They are just tools used to create something, possibly something that inspires people or stimulates their senses. Hmmm...that sounds like your definition for art. Coincidence?

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